@PaulaToThePeople @Stefan Bohacek Keep one thing in mind:

Mastodon may not have quote-posts yet. But the Fediverse has quote-posts right now. And it has had them since before Mastodon was made.

Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, CherryPick, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko, dozens of other Misskey forks, Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams), Forte etc. etc., they all have quote-posts. They're all fully capable of quote-posting any Mastodon toot.

None of them has introduced quote-posts to harass Twitter refugees on Mastodon. At least Friendica and Hubzilla have had quote-posts since long before Mastodon was even made.

You will be able to choose whether your posts can be quoted at all.

At least by Mastodon users.

But since this will be Mastodon re-inventing the wheel with brand-new, proprietary, Mastodon-only technology, everything I've listed above will still be able to quote-post anyone and anything on Mastodon with zero resistance.

To quote-post myself and the guy who invented Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte:

Jupiter Rowland schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 01:29:11 +0200 I think I've just chased someone out of the Fediverse.

That someone was afraid of Mastodon being "screwed over" by becoming quote-post-able.

I've told him the truth: Mastodon has been quote-post-able for as long as it has been around. Mastodon became quote-post-able the very moment it was launched.

That's because when Mastodon was launched, it immediately federated with Friendica which is from 2010, which had been around for almost six years at that point, and which has had quote-posts from its own inception AFAIK. Mastodon also immediately federated with Hubzilla which has had quote-posts since its own inception, since it had been forked from Friendica, and that was in 2012.

Mastodon has never been un-quote-post-able.

Right now, there are dozens of Fediverse server apps whose users can quote-post Mastodon toots with no resistance.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate
Mike Macgirvin schrieb den folgenden Beitrag Sat, 20 Jul 2024 03:18:39 +0200 The closest you'll ever get to making Mastodon un-quote-postable is to post privately. Not unlisted. Private. Most fediverse software will honour this today; and it doesn't require yet another "pretend permission". Like unlisted.

And Mike should know. He brought things to the Fediverse like actually working permissions. Including permissions on two levels to quote-post any content on a channel. Readily available right now at least on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte.

Also, this is what people on Friendica and its descendants have been using quote-posts for since 2010.

You will be notified when someone quotes you.

You already are when someone on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte quote-posts one of your posts.

As for Pleroma, Misskey and their forks, you aren't notified right now, and I've got my doubts that you will be after this change.

Also, "quote" and "quote-post" are two different things. Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can do both. "Quote" is what I'm doing right here. Whether or not you're notified depends on whether or not you're mentioned.

And blocking quotes is even less possible. A quote only consists of a pair of BBcode tags plus the quoted text in-between. And on Friendica and all its descendants, you don't work with a WYSIWYG editor by default, but you have to get your hands dirty on raw markup code.

You will be able to withdraw your post from the quoted context at any time.

Again, probably not if someone on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks quote-posts you.

And definitely not if someone on Friendica or one of its descendants quote-posts you.

The difference is that a quote-post on Pleroma, Misskey or one of their forks is actually a reference to the original. On Friendica and its descendants, a quote-post is an automatically generated dumb copy of the original.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #CherryPick #Sharkey #Catodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate

@JustBob Discord has completely warped the term "server" for entire generations of Internet users. On Discord, "server" means "chatroom".

In the Fediverse, "server" doesn't mean "chatroom". It means "server". A computer.

For example, a rack computer with no screen and no keyboard and no mouse bolted into a server rack at a data centre.

Or an old laptop that someone had lying around or a Raspberry Pi mini-computer running at someone's home, connected to their landline.

On each one of these, a big or small Twitter can be running (Mastodon).

Or a wholly different Twitter (Pleroma, Akkoma, Misskey, Calckey, Firefish, Iceshrimp, Sharkey, Catodon, Meisskey, Tanukey, Neko...).

(Here's the first important new thing for you to learn about the Fediverse: The Fediverse is not only Mastodon.)

Or a Facebook with a side of a blog and a cloud server (Friendica, (streams), Forte).

(Here's the second important new thing for you to learn about the Fediverse: The Fediverse is not only short-form microblogging. Look at this comment. Look at what I've done. Embedded links. Bold type. Impossible on Mastodon. But possible elsewhere in the Fediverse.)

Or a Facebook meets WordPress meets Google Cloud Services meets even more stuff on top (Hubzilla; this is where I am).

Or an Instagram (Pixelfed).

Or a YouTube (PeerTube).

Or a Twitch (Owncast).

Or a Reddit (Lemmy, /kbin, Mbin, PieFed).

Or a Goodreads (BookWyrm).

Or whatever. There are over 150 different server applications in the Fediverse.

mastodon.social, where you are, is only one of over 10,000 big and small Twitters of the same kind (Mastodon).

If Mastodon was like Discord, all 10,000+ Mastodon servers would run in one and the same gigantic data centre in the USA, owned by Mastodon, Inc. And they would all be property of Mastodon, Inc.

If the Fediverse was like Discord, all 30,000+ Fediverse servers would run in one and the same gigantic data centre in the USA, owned by Mastodon, Inc. And they would all be property of Mastodon, Inc. Also, they would be fully identical in functionality.

But as I've said above: They're all running on their own separate machines. With their own separate owners.

And the different server applications have different developers, and they are being developed independently from one another.

Okay, now comes the kicker: These server applications are not walled up against one another. Not only are all instances of the same server applications (e.g. Mastodon) connected to each other, but all instances of one server application are also connected to all instances of all the other server applications.

Imagine you're on Twitter. But your new friend is on Facebook. You can't follow a Facebook user on Twitter, and you can't follow a Twitter user on Facebook.

In the Fediverse, you can. You can be on Twitter. And follow a Facebook user. Directly from Twitter. Without a Facebook account.

Only that they aren't named Twitter and Facebook in the Fediverse. Twitter is named Mastodon or Pleroma or Akkoma or Misskey or Calckey or Firefish or Iceshrimp or Sharkey or Catodon or... There are dozens of Twitter alternatives in the Fediverse. Well, and Facebook is named Friendica or Hubzilla or (streams) or Forte.

You can be on Mastodon. And you can follow Friendica accounts. From Mastodon. Without a Friendica account.

This comment is a very good example. You are on Mastodon, created by @Eugen Rochko in 2016 as an alternative to Twitter that aimed to be as close to Twitter as possible.

The server that you're on, mastodon.social, is owned by Mastodon, Inc. and running on one or multiple rack servers in San Francisco, California, USA owned by Fastly.

I am on Hubzilla, created by @Mike Macgirvin in 2012 by forking his own Friendica from 2010, and currently mainly maintained by @Mario Vavti and @Harald Eilertsen. Hubzilla has got nothing to do with Mastodon whatsoever. It started out as an alternative to Facebook, but not a clone, rather better than Facebook, with full-blown long-form blogging capability and a built-in file storage, and it has been enhanced greatly in functionality even beyond that.

The server that I'm on, Netzgemeinde, is owned and administered by @Mark Nowiasz, who has no affiliation with the Hubzilla developers, and running on a rack server in Nuremberg, Germany owned by Netcup.

And yet, you can see this comment coming from Hubzilla on Mastodon.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Server #Instance #Mastodon #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Sharkey #Catodon #Meisskey #Tanukey #Neko #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #Pixelfed #PeerTube #Owncast #Lemmy #/kbin #Mbin #PieFed #BookWyrm #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse

@Ch M[ae][iy]e?r

Die Misskey-Familie ist am leistungsfähigsten, aber stark fragmentiert. Firefish und Calkey sind "tot"?

Firefish ist Calckey. Oder war es.

Ich versuche mal, die Geschichte nachzuzeichnen:

Calckey entstand, indem Kainoa Kanter einen Soft-Fork von Misskey angelegt hat. Damals war es noch üblich, daß jeder Forkey einen Namen mit "-key" am Ende hat (FoundKey, Meisskey, Tanukey etc.).

Das war im Grunde immer ein Soloprojekt. Es gab noch ein paar Extra-Entwickler. Aber: Nur Kainoa durfte in den Release-Code einpflegen und neue Versionen rausbringen, außerdem gehörten Kainoa die Domain der Website, die Domain des Code-Repository und die Domain der Leuchtturminstanz, die auch nur Kainoa administrierte.

Anfang 2023, eigentlich war Akkoma gerade der heiße Scheiß, schob ein einzelner Calckey-Fan mit massiver Werbung einen Calckey-Hype an. Weil sich die Leute reihenweise auf Calckey stürzten, kam der Gedanke auf, für ein so populäres Projekt ist "Calckey" eigentlich ein doofer Name. Also wurde Calckey in Firefish umbenannt.

Im Oktober 2023 ist Kainoa dann ziemlich komplett von der Bildfläche verschwunden, jedenfalls komplett aus dem Fediverse. Monatelang überhaupt gar nichts. Zu dem Zeitpunkt war Firefish noch einigermaßen synchron mit Misskey, das auf Version 12 war.

Zwischenzeitlich ging Misskey auf Version 13, dann auf Version 14. Aber Firefish zog nicht nach, weil Kainoa nicht da war. Die anderen Devs konnten Patches einreichen, aber nur Kainoa durfte die in den Produktivcode einpflegen.

Anfang 2024 war Firefish allmählich kritisch veraltet. Nicht nur das, sondern die Leuchtturminstanz, die mit Abstand größte Instanz kackte komplett ab und funktionierte überhaupt nicht mehr. Außer Kainoa konnte sich da aber niemand drum kümmern.

An diesem Punkt wurde Firefish für tot erklärt.

Leute sprangen reihenweise ab. Ganze Instanzen migrierten von Firefish zu Sharkey, einem anderen, jüngeren Misskey-Soft-Fork, der vor allem aktueller und aktiv gepflegt war. Ganze Firefish-Instanzen wurden auf Sharkey umgestellt.

Meines Wissens waren es die anderen Firefish-Entwickler, die das sinkende Schiff verließen. Sie forkten Firefish zu Iceshrimp, um zumindest ein paar Firefish-Features behalten zu können. Es war ein Hard Fork, weil sie eh nicht damit rechneten, daß mit Firefish noch irgendwas passiert. Und sie haben Iceshrimp praktisch unmittelbar nach den Fork nach Misskey rebaset, um den "Unterbau" vom asbach-uralten Misskey 12 auf Misskey 14 hochziehen zu können.

Im Frühjahr ist Kainoa wieder aufgetaucht. Der Grund für die Auszeit war ein Abschluß und ein Jobeinstieg. Und jetzt sollte es mit Firefish weitergehen. Nur war vom alten Firefish nicht mehr viel übrig. Und wohl erst jetzt erfuhr Kainoa, daß alle anderen Entwickler abgesprungen waren und nicht gedachten zurückzukehren.

Letztlich gab Kainoa den Quellcode an eine neue Entwicklerin ab, Naskya. Aber nur den Code. Die drei Domains mitsamt dranhängenden Websites zu übertragen, war wohl zuviel Aufwand. Kainoa hat alle drei abgeschaltet, weshalb die meisten Leute glauben, Firefish sei tot, weil die ganzen alten Weblinks nicht mehr funktionieren.

Naskya hat vorher den Quellcode auf ein neues Repository gesichert. Das aktuelle Firefish ist also rein technisch gesprochen ein Fork des alten Firefish unter demselben Namen. Außerdem hat Naskya eine neue Leuchtturminstanz gestartet auf einer Unterdomain des Repository.

Letzten Monat hat sie dann bekanntgegeben, daß es viel zuviel Aufwand ist, Firefish ganz alleine zu pflegen, und Hilfe hat sie ja keine. So kann sie das unmöglich weiterführen. Also hat sie die Weiterentwicklung von Firefish gestoppt. Es wird jetzt nur noch gewartet und auch das nur bis Jahresende, dann ist mit Entwicklung Schluß. Und im Februar 2025 werden Code-Repository und Leuchtturminstanz abgeschaltet.

Gibt es da irgendwelche Tendenzen, das zu Einen?

Absolut nicht.

Im allgemeinen sind Forkeys, die direkt von Misskey geforkt wurden, entstanden, um mehr Features an Misskey dranzukleben. So auch Calckey.

Die Idee hinter Sharkey war wohl quasi, den ultimativen Forkey zu bauen. Sharkey ist ein Misskey-Soft-Fork, wo teilweise Sachen aus Calckey/Firefish drangebaut wurden und zusätzlich noch Eigengezüchtetes.

Iceshrimp startete als der Versuch, einen stabilen Ersatz für Firefish zu haben. Es wurde von Firefish hartgeforkt, dann zwecks Aktualisierung der Basis auf das viel aktuellere Misskey rebaset. Dann hat man gemerkt, daß viele Probleme von Misskey selbst geerbt worden waren und es zu aufwendig wäre, die zu flicken. Ich meine, sonst hätte Firefish selbst das gemacht, sonst hätte Sharkey das gemacht oder wer auch immer. Also haben die Entwickler Iceshrimp auf Wartung gesetzt, die Weiterentwicklung komplett gestoppt und sich drangesetzt, das ganze Iceshrimp von Grund auf neu zu schreiben. Und zwar nicht mehr in TypeScript und Node.js, weil JavaScript für Serveranwendungen Käse ist, sondern in C#.

Zwischenzeitlich ist von Iceshrimp Catodon geforkt worden. Das hat wieder einen anderen Fokus, und zwar will es ein Forkey für Mastodon-Umsteiger sein. Mit einem ähnlichen Featuresatz wie Mastodon, also mit viel Firefish- und sogar Misskey-Klimbim rausgeschmissen und mit Mastodons Standard-Weboberfläche. Catodons Entwicklung ist meines Wissens auch gestoppt, ich glaube, die warten darauf, daß Iceshrimp.NET fertig wird, damit sie Catodon darauf rebasen können.

Dann gibt's noch CherryPick, einen japanischen Sharkey-Fork. Der hat sich zum Ziel gesetzt, die Macken, die das völlig überzüchtete Sharkey hat, auszubügeln. Das ist wohl zu großen Teilen auch schon gelungen. Schätze, die CherryPick-Entwickler haben es auch geschafft, Sharkeys legendär grottenschlechte Mastodon-API-Implementation durch die neue zu ersetzen, auf die die Sharkey-Entwickler schon ewig warten.

Markdown (Fett, Links, unterstrichen), keine Zeichenbegrenzung und flexiblere Umfragen. Sonst noch was wichtiges?

Markdown geht bei Misskey und den Forkeys noch weiter.

Zeichenbegrenzung haben sie alle, nur nicht auf 500 Zeichen. Je nach Projekt hast du 3000 hartgecodete Zeichen (Misskey) oder ein paar tausend, aber durch den Admin einstellbar.

(Fast) ganz ohne Zeichenbegrenzung sind nur die Sachen von Mike Macgirvin, also Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) und das wohl noch experimentelle noch gar nicht richtig gestartete Forte. Die letzteren beiden haben nur eine durch die Serverdatenbank bedingte Zeichenbegrenzung von über 24.000.000 Zeichen.

CC: @crossgolf_rebel - kostenlose Kwalitätsposts

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #LangerPost #CWLangerPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Calckey #Firefish #Sharkey #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp.NET #Catodon #CherryPick #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte

@Stefan Bohacek

Also worth mentioning that quote boosts, which have also recently received funding, will include work on privacy and safety features around them, possibly extending to other areas of the online experience.

These "privacy and safety features" are non-sense.

They're proprietary, they're non-standard, they're Mastodon-specific. And they are expected to work only by respecting a proprietary, non-standard, Mastodon-specific quote-post permission flag which probably won't even be documented anywhere except Mastodon's server code.

The opt-out feature will only work within a 100% Mastodon bubble and even that only if no non-Mastodon user finds content from within this bubble by searching mastodon.social for hashtags.

Mastodon is selling its whole quote-post feature as a total revolution, as the very introduction of quote-posts to the Fediverse. And it will work. I've once run a poll on whether the Fediverse has quote-posts. 71% of all voters thought the Fediverse does not have quote-posts right now. And that was in my bubble which, in comparison to Mastodon in general, is fairly Fediverse-savvy and full of non-Mastodon users.

But as a matter of fact, the Fediverse does have quote-posts right now! Almost everything that can do microblogging in a way has quote-posts.

Pleroma has quote-posts.

Akkoma has quote-posts.

Misskey has quote-posts.

Firefish has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp has quote-posts.

Iceshrimp.NET has quote-posts.

Sharkey has quote-posts.

Catodon has quote-posts.

Friendica has quote-posts.

Hubzilla has quote-posts.

(streams) has quote-posts.

And so forth.

They haven't introduced quote-posts to spite Mastodon. Some of them have had quote-posts since before Mastodon even existed. Friendica, for example, was created with quote-posts available, and that was five and a half years before Mastodon was created. For as long as Mastodon has existed, Friendica could quote-post Mastodon toots. And so could Hubzilla, created ten months before Mastodon.

In fact, all of the above can quote-post any Mastodon toot right now, with no problems, with zero resistance.

Guess what'll change when Mastodon introduces quote-posts plus the opt-in switch.

Well, Mastodon will be able to quote-post. Mastodon might be able to display quote-posts from outside properly, but probably not because it's ignoring that the rest of the Fediverse can quote-post.

But the rest of the Fediverse will still be able to quote-post just about all Mastodon toots. With no problems. With zero resistance. Even with the opt-in switched to off.

Because that switch is proprietary, non-standard and Mastodon-specific. Because only Mastodon even supports it.

This switch will cause many many more Mastodon users to learn the hard way that the Fediverse is more than Mastodon. Namely by encountering a post or comment from something that does not behave like Mastodon. And many many more Mastodon users will shit bricks in sheer terror upon this revelation.

If Mastodon really wanted this switch to be 100% waterproof, it would have to implement the feature request in its entirety. That includes defederation from all Fediverse instances that don't respect the opt-in switch.

Mind you, the defederation clause and the entire feature request came from someone in the firm belief that the Fediverse is Mastodon, only Mastodon and nothing but Mastodon. Just like about every other Mastodon user out there. So it was only targetted at rogue Mastodon instances with hacked source code.

In reality, however, it would require entire non-Mastodon Fediverse projects to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch.

All instances of Pleroma, of Akkoma, of Misskey, of Firefish, of Iceshrimp including Iceshrimp.NET, of Sharkey, of Catodon, of Friendica, of Hubzilla, of (streams) and so forth would have to be Fediblocked because they can quote-post without respecting Mastodon's quote-post opt-in switch. Every last one of them.

Mastodon's quote-post feature will either cause a rift through the Fediverse if this rule is put into action or even more people to shit bricks in terror and escape to Bluesky if it isn't.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Fedisplaining #CWFedisplaining #QuotePost #QuotePosts #QuoteTweet #QuoteTweets #QuoteToot #QuoteToots #QuoteBoost #QuoteBoosts #QuotedShares #QuotePostDebate #QuoteTootDebate #Pleroma #Akkoma #Misskey #Forkey #Forkeys #Firefish #Iceshrimp #Iceshrimp.NET #Sharkey #Catodon #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #NotOnlyMastodon #FediverseIsNotMastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #FediblockMeta