Med-Mastodon

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://zirk.us/@settima" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">settima</a> This isn't a bug. Mastodon 4.4 has intentionally been changed from hovering over the image to clicking the "Alt" badge in the bottom right corner in order for the alt-text to be displayed. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon44" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon44</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltText" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltText</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltTextMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWAltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWAltTextMeta</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://writing.exchange/@Firlefanz" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hannah Steenbock</a> You can't change it. This was intentionally changed and hard-coded into Mastodon 4.4 by the Mastodon devs. You have to click the black "Alt" badge in the bottom right corner of the image now to get the alt-text. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon4.4" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon4.4</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltText" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltText</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltTextMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWAltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWAltTextMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltTextMissing" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltTextMissing</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://nerdculture.de/@M" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Möph</a> <blockquote>Oder mir ist es damals™ einfach nicht aufgefallen, weil ich glücklicherweise auf nettere User gestoßen bin.</blockquote> Du bist wahrscheinlich fast nur auf Leute gestoßen, die von Twitter nach Mastodon abgehauen sind, nachdem Elon Musk angekündigt hatte, Twitter aufzukaufen. Plus ein paar wenige, die schon länger auf Mastodon waren. Umgekehrt sind auch nur solche Leute auf dich gestoßen. Als du neu warst, hattest du also null Kontakt zu Nicht-Mastodon-Fediverse-Nutzern. Ich schätze, du warst sehr lange der felsenfesten Überzeugung, daß "Mastodon" und "Fediverse" gleichbedeutend sind, weil das Fediverse nur Mastodon ist. Denn das Verhalten, das du beschrieben hast, legen nur Leute an den Tag, die hauptsächlich oder ausschließlich etwas anderes im Fediverse nutzen als Mastodon. Ich selbst war schon auf Friendica, als es noch mit "k" geschrieben wurde und Mastodon noch längst nicht mal eine Idee war. Ich bin insgesamt schon länger auf Hubzilla als 99,9% der Mastodon-Nutzer auf Mastodon. Mich stört es tatsächlich, wenn jemand eigentlich das ganze Netzwerk meint, aber "Mastodon" schreibt. Denn das diskriminiert alle Fediverse-Nutzer, die nicht auf Mastodon sind. Mich stört es auch, wenn jemand nur die Serveranwendung Mastodon meint, aber "Fediverse" schreibt. Denn das Fediverse ist sehr viel mehr als dieser Internet Explorer 6 unter den Fediverse-Anwendungen. Mich stört es auch, wenn jemand sich wünscht oder gar fordert, daß "das Fediverse" ein bestimmtes Feature einführen möge, das Friendica schon seit 15 Jahren hat. Oder wenn Leute fordern, daß "im Fediverse" ein Feature niemals eingeführt wird, das Friendica schon seit 15 Jahren hat, z. B. Quote-Posts. Ich weiß nämlich auch: Je länger ein Mastodon-Neuling glaubt, das Fediverse sei nur Mastodon, desto mehr gewöhnt er sich an ein reines Mastodon-Fediverse, das es so nie gab. Und je mehr er sich daran gewöhnt, desto verstörter ist er, wenn er erfährt, daß es im Fediverse auch noch andere Sachen gibt als Reintext-Microblogging mit maximal 500 Zeichen. Desto mehr wird er sich dagegen wehren. Desto eher wird er mich dafür attackieren, daß ich Hubzilla (voll durchformatiertes Macroblogging mit 16,7 Millionen Zeichen und tonnenweise anderen Features) nicht exakt so wie Mastodon benutze und meine Post nicht exakt wie Mastodon-Tröts aussehen. CC: @<a href="https://dresden.network/users/ueckueck" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ückück :ueckueck::pd::af:</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NichtNurMastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NichtNurMastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=MastodonZentrizit%C3%A4t" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">MastodonZentrizität</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=MastodonNormativit%C3%A4t" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">MastodonNormativität</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.social/@ShadSterling" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ShadSterling</a> Just because Mastodon doesn't have it, doesn't mean the Fediverse doesn't have it. How familiar are you with Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte? Because everything you've mentioned they've got right now. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.social/@quillmatiq" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Anuj Ahooja</a> Friendica has had full support for formatted long-form articles since its inception 15 years ago. The same goes for all its surviving descendants, created by the same developer: Hubzilla from 2015, (streams) from 2021, Forte from 2024. In addition, Hubzilla can be used to post federating long-form articles (which are automatically sent to Fediverse connections and Atom feed subscribers) and optionally also to post non-federating long-form articles (which aren't sent anywhere). Friendica has also been able to subscribe to both RSS and Atom feeds since its inception. The same goes for Hubzilla. This is not new to the Fediverse at all. See also my Mastodon vs Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte feature comparison tables here: <a href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a75de76-eb27-4149-b708-f20b2f79d392" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/0a75de76-eb27-4149-b708-f20b2f79d392</a>. (By the way: This is a non-federating Hubzilla article.) CC: @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@michaelmarek" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Michael Marek</a> @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@eliasp" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Elias Probst</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongForm" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongForm</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongFormText" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongFormText</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongFormContent" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongFormContent</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> <blockquote>Is there a test server where I can have a look at this?</blockquote> I don't think there's a public hub that's reliably always switching to release candidates. But if you're daring, you may try <a href="https://zotum.net" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">zotum.net</a>; it's running dev code, so it's always ahead of the others. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://kitty.social/@Uraael" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ScotsBear 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿</a> Just for me to be on the safe side: What are your minimum requirements for alt-texts and image descriptions so you refrain from sanctioning a user? Full, to-the-point adherence to <a href="https://www.accessible-social.com/images-and-visuals/writing-image-descriptions" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">the Accessible Social guidelines</a>, the <a href="https://www.cooperhewitt.org/cooper-hewitt-guidelines-for-image-description/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Cooper Hewitt guidelines</a>, <a href="https://veroniiiica.com/media-accessibility/alt-text/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Veronica With Four Eyes' various guidelines</a> etc., even though they contradict each other? Do you demand image descriptions be detailed and informative enough so that nobody will ever have to ask the poster about explanations and/or details because they're all already in the descriptions, no matter how niche and obscure the content of the image is? If there is already a lengthy image description in the post itself (imagine all character limits you know in the Fediverse; it's longer than all of them by magnitudes), do you still demand there be another description in the alt-text, even though the alt-text actually points the user to the description in the post, because there absolutely must be a sufficiently detailed and accurate image description in the alt-text, full stop? In fact, do you sanction image descriptions in general or alt-texts in particular if you think they are too long? For example, if you stumble upon an image post from me that has a "short" image description of 1,400 characters in the alt-text and a "long" image description of over 60,000 characters in the post itself (and I've actually posted such a thing into the Fediverse; <a href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/f8ac991d-b64b-4290-be69-28feb51ba2a7" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">here's the link to the source</a>), will you demand I discard two days and some 30 hours of work, delete the long description and cut the short description down to no more than 200 characters? Maybe even while still retaining the same amount of information? Lest you have me dogpiled and mass-blocked or worse? By the way, <a href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/1e63be04-d96e-412a-ab47-aff18c5f9ad8" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">I think I've gathered a whole lot of experience and knowledge about describing images generally and specifically for the Fediverse</a>, and <a href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/item/95b6e36d-7fcd-4791-8cc1-c93e8b9975a3" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">I also see the high level of detail in my image descriptions as fully justified</a>. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltText" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltText</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AltTextMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWAltTextMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWAltTextMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ImageDescription" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ImageDescription</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ImageDescriptions" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ImageDescriptions</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ImageDescriptionMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ImageDescriptionMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWImageDescriptionMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWImageDescriptionMeta</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> <blockquote>You say this like it's a bad thing.</blockquote> Not at all. One advantage is, as you've said, that the backend and the Web frontend can have their own developers, development of both can largely be detached, and they can be upgraded separately from one another. Separate Web frontends can be developed by people who actually know a thing or two about frontend development and UI design. I mean, look at the Web UIs of some all-in-one Fediverse server applications. They're often the digital counterpart of random knobs and switches poked through a piece of cardboard and labelled with a ball pen, just so that these knobs and switches are there. Sometimes they're the equivalent of expecting all kinds of end users to operate DIP switches, but hey, they're still better than soldering and unsoldering wires. Another advantage is that server software for which alternative frontends exist does not have to drag its default frontend around. There are Mastodon servers with alternative frontends, but they still have to have the two official Web UIs installed (the default one and the Tweetdeck-style one) because they're firmly welded to the backend. I guess we all know what a heavyweight Mastodon is, and I'm certain that part of the weight is caused by the built-in Web UIs. In stark contrast, you can set up an Akkoma server with Mangane instead of Akkoma-FE, as in without having to also install Akkoma-FE. By the way, Hubzilla is an interesting case here. Not only is its default UI very configurable, but Hubzilla itself is highly themeable, and third-party themes almost amount to entirely new UIs. At the same time, however, practically all official development efforts went only into the backend for most of its existence. Any Hubzilla UI has to wrestle an immense wealth of features, and not exactly new features were added over time. This, however, caused Hubzilla's UI to gradually turn into a jumbled mess because some of the new UI elements were seemingly added in totally random places. Not only was the UI never cleaned up, but the default theme is perpetually stuck in 2012 (the name "Redbasic" says it all, it was made for Hubzilla when Hubzilla was still named Red), it was derived from an early Friendica theme, and even Friendica wasn't pretty back then. Also, the documentation was completely neglected. So the situation last year was that there was only one working Hubzilla theme left, and that was Redbasic. It was the only theme that was even only upgraded to work with newer Hubzilla versions. There used to be other official themes, but they eventually ended up so outdated that they were removed altogether. @<a href="https://social.wedistribute.org/users/deadsuperhero" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Sean Tilley</a>'s third-party themes were last touched seven years ago, that must have been around the time when Hubzilla 3 came out. At the same time, the official documentation was not only highly incomplete, but it was so outdated that parts of it were simply false. It partly referred to features that had been axed many years ago (tech levels) and features that simply were never there (four different mention styles), and parts of it even still spoke of Red. Thus, nobody even knew how to develop new themes for current Hubzilla. That was when the community stepped in. @<a class="" href="https://hub.hubzilla.hu/channel/pepecyb" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Der Pepe (Hubzilla) ⁂ ⚝</a> sat down and <a href="https://help.hubzilla.hu" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rewrote the entire help</a>. @<a class="" href="https://loves.tech/channel/scott" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Scott M. Stolz</a> not only started working on his <a href="https://neuhub.org/page/documentation/install" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NeuHub themes</a>, but in the same process, he reverse-engineered Hubzilla's theming system to write documentation for theming Hubzilla which had never been written before AFAIK. Around that time, @<a class="" href="https://im.allmendenetz.de/channel/chris" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">?????</a> was dabbling with specialised themes for certain purposes, e.g. one very clean theme for Hubzilla channels used as long-form blogs. Later on, @<a class="" href="https://utsukta.org/channel/sk" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Saiwal</a> joined the fray with his now-popular <a href="https://github.com/saiwal/Utsukta-hub-themes" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Utsukta themes</a>. Granted, Hubzilla still carries Redbasic around, not only as the default for new channels unless the admin chooses another one, but also as a fallback in case a new Hubzilla version doesn't support existing third-party themes anymore. The latter is becoming less likely as the Utsukta themes are being built against Hubzilla's development versions now. Besides, it's in Hubzilla's nature that everything on a hub is updated at the same time, including third-party repositories. In general, the Hubzilla community is no longer that easily satisfied with a UI that "just works", and the devs have taken notice. Hubzilla 10.4, now a release candidate, will spruce up certain core parts of the UI. It will introduce a tree-style thread view as the new default instead of its current chronological view, something that Friendica, (streams) and Forte have had for significantly longer. That is, this is actually a side-effect of the introduction of "lazy loading" conversations to reduce the server workload. Also, upon user request, it will add a button to add images to comments. If (streams) and Forte grow bigger, the same could happen there. They have two official themes to choose from, fairly new Fresh and an older version of Redbasic. However, they don't have a large enough community for all the same things to happen to them that happened to Hubzilla, although Pepe has said he'd rewrite the (streams) and Forte help as well, seeing as Mike had ripped them out entirely with no replacements as they were too outdated at that point. Maybe someone will even write a guide on how to adapt Hubzilla themes to (streams) and Forte. That is, (streams) and Forte are both already the result of several years of UI and UX advancement and improvements and making them fit for a Mastodon-dominated Fediverse (where Hubzilla is still geared towards a Fediverse which it will dominate itself by the mid-to-late 2010s). This is stuff which can't be taken care of in themes because it concerns the UI engine itself, and it's partly tied deeply into the backend. While Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte won't be able to do without their official themes anytime soon, the official themes don't significantly weigh them down. Still, they require some maintenance work to keep up with the backend. <blockquote>Wouldn't Mastodon would be better if it specialised in developing apps, and outsourced the server side to people who know how to do back-end engineering?</blockquote> This makes me wonder which half Mastodon would be willing to outsource. I think they'd rather hold on to the backend and pass all the frontends on. Of course, this would come with the advantage of the official Mastodon mobile app actually becoming somewhat decent rather than remaining the "we need an official app, no matter how" kluge that it is today. CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkoma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkoma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AkkomaFE" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AkkomaFE</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mangane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mangane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkomane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkomane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> So Pleroma and Akkoma (which, for some reason, is missing from the list) actually use the ActivityPub C2S API to connect their frontends? Even though Pleroma predates ActivityPub and started out as an alternative GNU social frontend, much like Mastodon? I mean, they're famous for having separate repositories for the server and the Web frontend (same name with "-FE" attached). And they're equally famous for having servers that forgo the official frontend in favour of third-party stuff, most notably Mangane. So if Mangane actually makes use of that API rather than a homebrew *oma client API, it could be used as or, if need be, modified into a sparrings partner for API-testing purposes, not to mention that it's living proof that the API actually works. As it integrates with Pleroma and Akkoma that well, I've got my doubts that it only uses the Mastodon client API. In the cases of (streams) and Forte which are almost the same software save for protocol support, the Web UI is much closer to the server backend, as flexible and modifyable it is. In their cases, the question would be whether they could be used to test just how far feature support in the ActivityPub C2S API can possibly go, maybe even whether it'd be possible to use the ActivityPub C2S API to build an almost fully-featured (streams)/Forte client app (except, of course, Web UI configuration and (streams)' per-channel ActivityPub switch which might cut the whole app off the server). CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Pleroma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Pleroma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=PleromaFE" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">PleromaFE</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkoma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkoma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=AkkomaFE" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">AkkomaFE</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mangane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mangane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Akkomane" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Akkomane</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=API" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">API</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> Still, the headbutting was often justified for Mike. Unless, of course, you say that Mastodon is and has always been the one and only Fediverse gold standard and the one and only ActivityPub reference implementation. I'll give you an example: In July, 2017, Mike's Hubzilla was the very first Fediverse server software to implement ActivityPub. Mike played strictly by the rules. As Hubzilla has a character limit of over 16.7 million and supports text formatting on the same level as the best long-form blogging platforms out there, he declared Hubzilla long-form and made Hubzilla send Article-type objects. Just as the spec demands. In September, Mastodon became the second Fediverse server software to implement ActivityPub. But Gargron did not play by the rules. He only implemented a tiny subset of the protocol, namely what suited him. And he also broke it: Mastodon could display Article-type objects at their full length. But Gargron staunchly refused to implement any support for anything that goes beyond plain text. The ActivityPub spec explicitly says that Article-type objects are formatted. But Gargron wanted Mastodon to be a purist, minimalist, old-school, original-gangsta, Twitter-cloning microblogging platform. And stuff like bold type, italics, headlines, embedded in-line images or titles aren't purist, minimalist, old-school, original-gangsta, Twitter-cloning microblogging. And so Mastodon took fully formatted, long-form-blog-style posts from Hubzilla and ripped everything out that wasn't plain text. It basically defaced Hubzilla posts. That is, it had been defacing Friendica and Hubzilla posts all the same ever since it was launched. But this time, there was a spec that actually defined what Mastodon was doing as wrong. And that spec had been finalised and pronounced a W3C standard meanwhile. So Mike asked Gargron to please follow the official ActivityPub spec and make Mastodon support full HTML rendering for Article-type objects. Gargron refused. Old-skool microblogging is plain text and only plain text, full stop. This went back and forth. Eventually, Gargron presented a "solution": Mastodon now "renders" Article-type objects by showing the title and, right below, a link to the original. That is, basically not at all anymore. Of course, this meant that the vast majority of Mastodon users no longer read what came from Friendica and Hubzilla because they couldn't be bothered to open that link. Mike saw this as a direct assault against Friendica and Hubzilla and an attempt at excluding both from "the Fediverse" which was almost entirely Mastodon at that point already. So he himself had to break the spec and make Hubzilla send Note-type objects instead so that Mastodon renders them at all. It still defaces them to this day. (Friendica's solution was to send an Article-type object when a post has a title and a Note-type object when it doesn't have a title. Optionally, it can always send Note-type objects.) By the way: This very same head-butting has returned. Not between Gargron and Mike, though, but between Gargron and much bigger players. Platforms like Flipboard and Ghost have introduced ActivityPub, and they send Article-type objects just as the ActivityPub spec demands. The same goes for WordPress. And, of course, they don't send plain-text "long tweets". They send fully formatted news articles and blog posts. And now they demand Mastodon, as the biggest player in the Fediverse by user count, make their Article-type objects look just like they look at the source. They demand Mastodon not only render bold type, italics, headlines and the rest of the subset of text formatting that was introduced with Mastodon 4 in October, 2022. They also demand Mastodon show the titles and, most importantly, leave the images embedded within the articles in place, no matter how many they are. This is no longer Gargron and his devs vs a guy in the Australian outback. This is Gargron and his devs who try hard to bend the Fediverse to their will and assume supreme control over it vs the Ghost Foundation, Flipboard, Inc. and Automattic, Inc. that play strictly by the ActivityPub rules. And I dare say that Automattic, Inc. alone has more money and more market power than Mastodon gGmbH and Mastodon, Inc. combined. Mastodon has always gotten away with ignoring and breaking standards, re-inventing wheels and implying towards its religious followers that the whole Fediverse was built upon Mastodon and around Mastodon, and that everything that does things differently from Mastodon is inherently a broken add-on to Mastodon or an evil intruder. This time, they won't. And I guess they've actually taken it into consideration. CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=WordPress" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">WordPress</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Ghost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ghost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Flipboard" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Flipboard</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> I guess the main obstacle in development right now is that there are no clients to pair the server applications with and test them against. Then again, it would take a whole lot of clients. One unified client that covers e.g. Pleroma just as neatly as (streams) is impossible, seeing as how extremely different the two are. CC: @<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> @<a href="https://social.coop/@smallcircles" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">just small circles 🕊</a> @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@benpate" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ben Pate 🤘🏻</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Pleroma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Pleroma</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://social.heise.de/@mho" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Martin Holland</a> Also gerade umgekehrt: Das Testmagazin auf /kbin fängt alle öffentlichen Posts mit dem Hashtag ab, weil es glaubt, es sei gemeint, dabei soll es das gar nicht? Okay, das ist unpäßlich je nach Hashtag-Konstellation. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%2Fkbin" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">/kbin</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://social.heise.de/@mho" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Martin Holland</a> Sollte dieser Post da erscheinen? Jedenfalls, der erste Fehler ist, daß du das /kbin-Magazin zum einen über Eck über Feddit anzuspielen versuchst und zum anderen gar nicht erwähnst. Statt es als <a href="https://feddit.org/c/testing@kbin.earth" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://feddit.org/c/testing@kbin.earth</a> über den Umweg über Feddit zu verlinken, solltest du es wahrscheinlich eher a) direkt auf kbin.earth und b) erwähnen. Möglicherweise funktioniert auch auf /kbin (das übrigens eigentlich seit letztem Jahr mausetot ist und von jemand anders als Mbin weiterentwickelt wird) nur das Mastodon-nach-Lemmy-Schema: <pre><code>Titel <-- erste Zeile ist immer der Titel @testing@kbin.earth <-- zweite, separate Zeile ist die Erwähnung eigentlicher Post <-- unter allem anderen und ohne Hashtags oder sonstige Erwähnungen</code></pre> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLangerPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLangerPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Lemmy" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Lemmy</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%2Fkbin" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">/kbin</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mbin" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mbin</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> Locally writing content to the database of an ActivityPub-based server will inevitably require a local user account on that very server. I mean, we already have <a href="https://magicsignon.org/page/openwebauth/home" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">OpenWebAuth magic sign-on</a> which was invented by @<a class="" href="https://fediversity.site/channel/mikedev" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mike Macgirvin ?️</a> for <a href="https://hubzilla.org" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> in 2017, and which also has full implementations in his later server applications <a href="https://codeberg.org/streams/streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> and <a href="https://codeberg.org/fortified/forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> and a client-side implementation on Mike's first project, <a href="https://friendi.ca" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a>. But without an actual account on another server, OpenWebAuth can only authenticate you on that other server as a guest and grant you certain guest permissions. It does not give you all the powers of a local user, at least not without a local account. Also, if you want to actually log in on another server, you will inevitably need local login credentials on that server. Which means that a user account with these login credentials must be created prior to you logging in on that server so that that server knows your login name and your password. Even if you want to use something like OAuth, that server will still require to know your credentials. They will have to be in that server's database before you can successfully log in. A server cannot and will not authenticate you against credentials in a wholly different remote server's database. What you and many other Fediverse users dream of can only be solved in two ways and both only theoretically because, in practice, they are just as impossible or at least very unfeasible. Either if you register an account on one Fediverse server, that account with the exact same credentials is simultaneously created on literally all other Fediverse servers, and on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, you also automatically get a channel along with that account. This also means that each Fediverse server that's installed and spun up for the first time will immediately have to create tens of millions of accounts so that everyone all over the Fediverse automatically has login credentials on that server. I guess it should be clear that this is impossible, also because this requires a) a centralised list of absolutely all Fediverse accounts and identities and b) a centralised list of all Fediverse servers to be hard-coded into every last instance of every last Fediverse server out there. Now, I keep reading stuff like, "But I don't want to use all Fediverse servers!" No, but you want to be able to use any Fediverse server. And then you will have to have an account there. How is the Fediverse supposed to know in advance which servers you will visit this year, the next two years, five years, ten years so that accounts can be automatically created for you exactly there and nowhere else? See? And that's why, if you want to be able to use any server like with a local account, every server must be prepared for it before you arrive. Or drive-by registration: You visit a Fediverse server for the first time, your active login is recognised by that Fediverse server, and an account is created for you on the fly with the exact same login credentials as where you're already logged in. That's its own can of worms. Also, it requires remote authentication. OpenWebAuth. As I've already said: This is technology that's eight years old, and that's being daily-driven right now. But: You will never have this on Mastodon. <a href="https://github.com/mastodon/mastodon/pull/25012" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">There actually is a pull request for Mastodon from two years ago that would have implemented client-side OpenWebAuth support.</a> It was never merged. It was silently rejected by the Mastodon developers. The PR was closed in November, 2024. Some people go even further: They don't just want their login credentials wherever they go, they want their whole identity cloned to everywhere. They want all their stuff, all their posts and comments and DMs, all their followers and followed, all their settings, all their filters etc. etc. pp., they want it everywhere all the same. Like a <a href="https://joinfediverse.wiki/Nomadic_identity" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">nomadic identity</a> (an invention by Mike from 2011, first implemented in 2012) across up to 30,000 servers. Now, you and many others on Mastodon are probably going to cry out, "YES, YES, PLEASE MAKE THIS REALITY!" But seriously: I myself have actually cloned enough Hubzilla and (streams) channels of mine in my time. None of them even had nearly as much content on them as your Mastodon account. And I can tell from a lot of personal experience that this cannot be done within a blink of an eye. Nomadic identity won't come to Mastodon anyway. Nomadic identity via ActivityPub is probably being daily-driven already. Forte has it, and it relies on it. But Mastodon will never implement it. In particular, Mastodon would rather re-invent the "nomadic identity" wheel in a way that's incompatible with what we already have than implement something made by Mike Macgirvin. Not after all the head-butting that has happened between Mike and Gargron over the years. And OpenWebAuth won't come to Mastodon either. Probably also for the same reason. CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> @<a href="https://mastodon.social/@benpate" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ben Pate 🤘🏻</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=OpenWebAuth" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">OpenWebAuth</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=SingleSignOn" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">SingleSignOn</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NomadicIdentity" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NomadicIdentity</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.nzoss.nz/users/strypey" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Strypey</a> <blockquote>The main reason devs haven't wanted to use the C2S API in the AP spec is network effect. Clients devs don't want to use it because Mastodon doesn't, and servers devs don't want to use it because their services wouldn't work with all the clients following the Mastodon API.</blockquote> It's actually tempting to imagine a vicious circle here: If almost everything has the Mastodon client API implemented, it isn't worth developing dedicated client apps that also cover other servers' extra features. Instead, the reason why all kinds of server applications have the Mastodon client API implemented is because they absolutely need some phone apps that work with them. Just look around the Fediverse. Almost everyone is exclusively on phones nowadays. And especially iPhone users wouldn't touch a Web browser with a 10-foot barge pole if they don't absolutely have to, so expecting them to use the Web UI means you're stuck in a bubble or a time where smartphones are still a gimmick. That's why even Friendica has implemented the Mastodon client API. I mean, Mastodon and Friendica are very different, and the Mastodon client API only covers a small fraction of what Friendica can do. It actually doesn't cover some critical everyday features. At the same time, there's little to no incentive for those who can develop mobile apps to make apps for anything that isn't Mastodon. Many start working on Fediverse apps at a point when they still believe the Fediverse is only Mastodon. Or if they don't, at least they've never heard of Pleroma and its family, Misskey and its family, Friendica and its family (where Hubzilla would require a wholly different app than Friendica, and (streams) and Forte would require a wholly different app than both) etc. Or they genuinely think that developing the umpteenth iPhone app for Mastodon is worth the effort more than developing the first stable dedicated iPhone app for Friendica. It's a miracle that stuff like Aria for the *key family exists. It seems like of all the server apps that don't do *blogging (purist long-form blogging stuff like WriteFreely excluded), Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte are the only ones that don't have the Mastodon client API implemented. And I can't see them do it. For one, their devs steer clear of all proprietary, non-standard Mastodon technology. But other than that, these three are even less like Mastodon than Friendica, and they work even less like Mastodon. Even using a Mastodon app for stuff like basic posting is out of question because it pretty much requires access to the per-post permission settings, something that Mastodon doesn't have implemented, and therefore, neither do the apps for it. Now, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte can be installed as so-called Progressive Web Apps. But only Hubzilla veterans ever do that, and that's for three reasons: One, next to nobody has ever heard of the very concept of PWAs. Two, all that people know is installing apps from the Apple App Store and the Google Play Store. And three, people want native mobile interfaces in the style of whatever phone they use. It doesn't matter how well the Web UIs of these three adapt to mobile screens, especially since 90% of all phone users have totally forgotten that you can rotate a phone sideways. Hubzilla actually has its own client API, and I think (streams) and forte have their own one, too. But nobody has ever even only tried to build a native mobile app for either of them. Hubzilla's devs even have to admit that they don't know how well Hubzilla's client API works because there has literally never been a sufficiently-featured counterpart to test it against. All there is is an extremely basic Android app built by one of them that's available as a download somewhere, and all it can do is send very basic posts, I think, even only at your default settings. It's just a proof of concept. The ActivityPub C2S API is just as untested. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=MastodonAPI" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">MastodonAPI</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=API" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">API</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ClientAPI" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ClientAPI</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=MastodonAPI" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">MastodonAPI</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://social.coop/@smallcircles" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">just small circles 🕊</a> It's not Fedi UX. It's Mastodon UX. Big difference. Here on Hubzilla, I see the whole thread as one right away, all the way to the start post, without having to look at it at its origin. The only improvement that I'm waiting for is the tree-style view that'll soon be rolled out with Hubzilla 10.4 (Friendica, (streams) and Forte already have tree-style views whereas Hubzilla had a strictly chronological thread view until the recent RCs). #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Conversations" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Conversations</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ThreadedConversations" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ThreadedConversations</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mastodon.social/@benpate" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Ben Pate 🤘🏻</a> In the words of a diaspora* developer, if Mozilla and Vivaldi "implemented ActivityPub", they'd actually "implement Mastodon". That'd mean catching more users with less effort than implementing vanilla ActivityPub and implementing features that Mastodon doesn't have. Besides, both used to have or still have a Mastodon server, but they don't seem to be aware that there's a Fediverse beyond Mastodon, much less what it's like and how it works. In fact, they wouldn't even implement the ActivityPub C2S API at all. They'd implement the Mastodon client API and only the Mastodon client API. CC: @<a href="https://blah.rako.space/users/rakoo" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">rakoo</a> @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Fediverse" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Fediverse</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=ActivityPub" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">ActivityPub</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mastodon" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mastodon</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=MastodonAPI" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">MastodonAPI</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mas.to/@osma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦</a> Once silverpill is done converting Mitra, we'll have both a hopefully full set of necessary FEPs and ideally a guide on how to make something non-nomadic nomadic. At least it will have been done once. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NomadicIdentity" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NomadicIdentity</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Mitra" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Mitra</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://mas.to/@osma" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Osma A 🇫🇮🇺🇦</a> <blockquote>I would argue that had we a good account portability model that solved also post history, there would be no need for a centralized onboarding. Don't like your local community or service provider? Migrate somewhere else. Bluesky does have this slightly better thought out, if not yet practically proven.</blockquote> What Bluesky has as a vague concept that's far from being implemented can't hold a candle to what Hubzilla has had for 13 years now. 12 years of stable releases. What it has passed on to a whole number of forks and forks of forks, all by the same creator, of which the streams repository of 2021 and Forte of 2024 still exist. As of Forte, it works entirely via ActivityPub without requiring its own protocol, and it should theoretically even work between servers of different types (if there was anything else with an ActivityPub nomadic identity implementation to clone and move from and to). We have an account portability model (only not for accounts as in logins; see below). We have it in spades. We have it beyond everyone's wildest imagination. And it has been daily-driven by Fediverse users for much longer than most of you have been on Mastodon. The real issues are: It relies on separating your identity (posts, comments, DMs, settings, connections, files, filters etc. etc.) from your login/account, but just about everywhere that isn't Hubzilla, (streams) or Forte, they're firmly welded together, and separating them is next to unthinkable. And even if that wasn't an issue, Mastodon would still never adopt it, and be it because Eugen Rochko refuses to accept anything that's Mike Macgirvin's brain-child. CC: @<a href="https://indieweb.social/users/tchambers" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Tim Chambers</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Long" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Long</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=LongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">LongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLong" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLong</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWLongPost" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWLongPost</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Hubzilla" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Hubzilla</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Streams" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Streams</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=%28streams%29" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">(streams)</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Forte" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Forte</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=NomadicIdentity" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">NomadicIdentity</a>

Jupiter Rowland@<a href="https://friendica.sokoll.com/profile/rainer" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Rainer "friendica" Sokoll</a> Ich frage mich sowieso, wieso Friendica nicht längst die Abstimmungen von seinen drei noch existierenden MIT-lizensierten Nachfahren zurückportiert hat. Oder warum Friendica die nicht von vornherein hatte. #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=FediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">FediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=CWFediverseMeta" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">CWFediverseMeta</a> #<a class="" href="https://hub.netzgemeinde.eu/search?tag=Friendica" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">Friendica</a>

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