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@uk_politics https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/what-next-for-british-left-labour-strikes-unions-keir-starmer-jeremy-corbyn/?utm_source=SEGMENT%20-%20Newsletter%3A%20oD%20weekly&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Society%20is%20shifting%20leftwards%2C%20but...&_kx=95fkBW9xUhcEiUn_sEUVx1-FIxpReUd8Ie0w7IyDjZU%3D.YjCYwm

@ThePyroPython
Under FPTP, not in my area, however...
https://med-mastodon.com/@XraySonoCol/110876506587951106

@snacks
I think it's important for me as the OP to point out that telling Labour they've lost my vote is as important as my vote.
If there's a lack of push-back from the left regarding Labour's movement right, then they will assume this is what the voting public want.
I'm certain there are others that share at least some of my views on this.
A this late stage, the LibDems or Greens can't make a push to win.
I also cc'd my local LibDems and Greens in the same email re: a coalition strategy.

Yeah I don’t see any point throwing a vote to a party that no longer has any of your interests at heart, if anything it just reinforces their decision if you do that

@solivine Agreed, but I'd caveat that there are policies that I may find worthy of my vote, it's just that there are many red lines and more that I've spelt out, that I don't wish to cross.

@frankPodmore My characterisation is broad and lacking detail, mostly for word count. There are other policies I've not detailed either.
As I've said elsewhere, my voicing my opinion to Labour and other left parties is as important as my vote.

That is definitely less important than your vote. Also, I’m unconvinced you’ve read the article in the time you’ve had since I posted it.

EDIT: Why have you replied in so many different comments? I can’t follow your argument if it’s spread out like this!

@frankPodmore It's 632 words long.

Even this argument shows that the ‘why’ of voting is subsidiary to the fact of voting, which is the opposite point to the one you intend.

@frankPodmore Only if you assume that my intention is to make good on the threat.

It’s not much of a threat if you don’t, is it?

No, it doesn’t agree with you. Really basic reading comprehension error, there. It says people have said that, not that it is true. It spends the following 600 words demolishing that case.

@noodle As I said I've read it, via a different method to you, but thanks for sharing it.
Now other readers will be aware of a strategy. Not all strategies work so people may have to try more than one. In any case it's an inadequate article.

You responded within 1 minute of it being posted and then dismissed it for being too long, which it isn’t. Anything less than 1500 words should take you about 5 minutes to read. That’s not much of a commitment.

@noodle Skim, CTRL-F, then re-read, it's been quite some time now and it's still inadequate.

Your description of what you want is virtually value-free, because it’s framed entirely negatively. It sounds like you want ‘not the Tories’. The article makes the case that Labour are ‘not the Tories’, as does history and, frankly, common sense.

@frankPodmore The article in it's just over 600 words does barely anything to answer my points.
The value is again, that I choose to tell Labour what it is I want from them. Recall that I've not shared the email with you, so you have no way of knowing.
It isn't a simple dichotomy. I choose to tell Labour what I want from them. There are many varieties of not Tory and labour can choose to be Tory lite, or not. How I vote and what I tell them can align or not as I see fit.

I mean, again, your points are ‘Labour are too much like the Tories’ and the article is about numerous ways in which Labour are, in fact, not like the Tories.

@Xophmeister I'd say that's reasonable if we can agree that Labour know what the voter base wants.
I've told them what I want, but have others?
Assumption doesn't mean they know and polls are excellent, if done in a biased manner, at providing answers to questions the commissioner of a poll wants.

@Overzeetop That's another way of accusing me of being a Tory enabler. The point being as I have said elsewhere, is that what I tell labour I will do and what I do, are not their or anyone else's concern.
In the meantime I can lobby for policy change in any way I see fit, as can anyone else, in a democracy as it currently stands.
It isn't a simple dichotomy, despite FPTP.

@Overzeetop

"As far as I can ascertain, Conservatives voters fall into one or more of these categories;"
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1690002613842886656.html

@Overzeetop Thanks for the explanatory note and spotting the edit.
I'm all for pragmatic and ultimately GTTO, so chances are I / we will be faced with either voting Tory shit (no chance) or a bit less shit in the shape of a much less than ideal Labour.

Yes, I will try and do what I can to drive an improvement somewhere along the line with whom ever I can that'll help the concerned collective along. Finding those people might be harder than it needs to be.

Holy shit - that’s awesome; I hope they’re receptive!

@Overzeetop hope so too. I'm planning on having the call going along the lines of dragons den, they're doing the flogging of an idea, not me!

@Fedegenerate I didn't say I won't vote for them, I just told them they had lost my vote.
Staying silent and voting for a not good enough Labour let's them think they are. Telling them I won't even though I might vote for them, and describing why, gives them an opportunity to evaluate.
If they're not good enough for you and yours what are you doing to change that? My strategy is one way. There are others.

don’t think I’m describing what you think I’m describing.

I’m describing the no win situation right leaning Labour supporters try to force left leaning people into.

I.e. 1 When a Labour leader they don’t like loses an election it’s the left’s fault. 2 When a leader they do like loses an election it’s the left’s fault.

I saw the same double bind being envoked in this thread, so I thought I’d highlight it.

@Fedegenerate Double bind isn't intentional other than the one you described where lost elections are the left's fault.
Perhaps I should restate my point - I want Labour to change and now they know. I have threatened a lost vote and they have no knowledge of whether I will hold to it that threat or not. That's the point, not what my vote is as they couldn't know what it would truly be before hand.

@Emperor I agree, Tory is worst. I don't have to let a not good enough Labour think they are good enough.
Recall I *told* Labour they lost my vote, that doesn't mean I can't exercise my vote in any way that effectively gets the Tories out, which includes actually voting for Labour.

@C4d Only if people fail to see that there are multiple narratives, which include telling Labour I require they change under threat of no vote. They like others know not of my intention, the cost to them is clear, a lost vote, which is what they require. They earn my vote, they work for it. Hopefully ppl who are dissatisfied will see that another way exists and instead demand better, not to succumb to their own apathetic thought processes.

@C4d https://med-mastodon.com/@XraySonoCol/110877447317687630

@C4d Like I've said elsewhere, it's a threat of a lost vote, that doesn't mean I won't vote tactically at GE. They can gamble that I and others will hold to our threat in their strategy if they wish. Just as they can if they assume that all polls assume a majority acceptance of policies, which is short-sighted IMO.
They've been told they're not good enough and have a threat of a lost vote because of it.
Agreed, PR is better, Starmer has U-turned on that as well though.

How have you told Labour? Are you organised? Apologies if you’ve already answered this elsewhere in the thread and I’ve missed it.

Under FPTP, the vote on the right (Tory Party) has an advantage because the vote on the left is more split (Labour, Lib Dem, Green). I appreciate that independents and other parties exist (eg this thing called Reform on the right) or are being considered (have posted separately).

In my area it’s a two horse race. I’m sure that’s the case in many areas.

Depending on the voting patterns and margin in your area, FPTP may allow them to call your bluff. If over the course of the next year your area begins to poll as marginal, you may find you have more clout.

It’s so unfair. But it’s how it works right now. PR can’t come soon enough. I’m saddened that it seems a long way off at this time.

I’ll be voting though. It’s not put me off.

@C4d
It's a very recent development over this weekend and so far I'm contacting opposition parties, my union and seeking out activists as well.
I've emailed regional Labour party and also included my local LibDems, Greens parties, as well as Labour, Green and LibDem metro councillors.

I agree and recognise how FPTP doesn't work fairly and yes they can call my bluff. I'm uncertain as to whether they can effectively predict how accurate voting intention polls are. Labour keep shifting right.

@C4d I'll also be voting and I'll flog the hobby-horse again for the benefit of others, because I'm tiring of people failing to see that the threat to not vote Labour and the intention to vote tactically are separate. A bluff as you accurately put it.

I think I get your point but the subtlety of voting for a party because you fully agree with them vs voting for a party to oust someone else is lost on others if the outcome is the same.

In terms of your other points, doing something is better than doing nothing. If you’re really passionate about this and what to see change in eg the Labour Party it’s going to take more than just you; it’ll need organisation and grass roots activity.

I know a few people who’ve had a moment of disappointment or dissatisfaction that’s driven them into politics at grass roots and beyond. They cover a good chunk of the centre left to centre right and fortunately we’re all grown up enough to still be friends even as we disagree with each other.

It’s a lot of work.

Good luck!

@C4d Oh absolutely and I'm not alone.
FPTP doesn't allow for nuance, and I agree the subtlety of which you speak is lost, but that's not the entire point, the points aren't just the vote, it's Labour's knowledge of opinions of the party that also matters, whether mine or a grassroots collective.
Labour do not have to know my intention, only my statement. They can either calculate I'm serious or bluffing. If nothing else the exchanges here will encourage introspection in others. That's of worth.