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#openwebauth

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@Hrefna (DHC)

If your server disappeared tomorrow with no ability to export your follower graph, how would you rebuild it?

If you do a server move, what happens to your post history?


Widespread adoption of Nomadic Identity, if it ever happens, may help with this.

I am sure you already know this, but for other readers, these two 2017 articles explain how Nomadic Identity works in Hubzilla, which is based on the Nomad/Zot protocol.

#^https://medium.com/@tamanning/nomadic-identity-brought-to-you-by-hubzilla-67eadce13c3b
#^https://medium.com/@tamanning/getting-started-with-nomadic-identity-how-to-create-a-personal-channel-on-hubzilla-7d9666a428b

Mike Macgirvin recently got Nomadic Identity working on ActivityPub too.

#^https://fediversity.site/item/b69ce5a0-0c22-4933-8393-dce7100f4584

Unfortunately, the ActivityPub world keeps pretending that Mike Macgirvin and his work does not exist (Nomadic Identity has been around and working in Hubzilla for roughly a decade).

There's also OpenWebAuth (Federated Single Sign On). As Sean Tilley explains in this March 2024 article, Nomadic Identity and OpenWebAuth together can enable network resilience, censorship resistance, and ease of migration.

#^https://wedistribute.org/2024/03/activitypub-nomadic-identity/

No idea whether Nomadic Identity, OpenWebAuth, conversation containers, etc. will ever get widespread adoption. At present, the user base of software such as Hubzilla, Forte etc. (which have these features) is negligible. And at least in case of Hubzilla (which I am using), the UI and UX needs a lot of work; don't know about Forte (which is based on ActivityPub).

And yes, all the other problems with the Fediverse that you listed will still remain. At this point, I doubt if the Fedi will ever become socially and politically relevant.

#ActivityPub #ATProto #Nomad #Zot #NomadicIdentity #OpenWebAuth #Fediverse
Medium · Nomadic identity, brought to you by Hubzilla - Andrew Manning - MediumBy Andrew Manning
Replied in thread
@David Nason Pixelfed is wholly separate software from Mastodon on wholly separate servers with wholly separate owners. So yes, you need a separate Pixelfed account. It's a bit easier on Pixelfed if you're already on Mastodon: Pixelfed lets you automatically create a new user account by "logging in" with your Mastodon login credentials. But only Pixelfed has this as far as I know.

Loops is wholly separate again, but there's only one instance so far because it's too unfinished to even be open-source. So you'll need a Loops account next to your Mastodon account and your Pixelfed account.

Also, you'll have different followers on Mastodon, on Pixelfed and on Loops. But what you could do if you want your followers on Mastodon to see your Pixelfed posts is: Follow your own Pixelfed account from Mastodon. And then, whenever you post something interesting on Pixelfed, wait for it to arrive on your Mastodon timeline, and then boost it.

@Mark Stosberg There's one thing that exists already now: OpenWebAuth magic single sign-on. But it's only available on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte and partially on Friendica.

What it does is recognise your login on another instance, even on an instance of another server application. Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte recognise logins from Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, but Friendica can't recognise logins.

However, this is only used by the permissions system. For example, someone whom I'm connected to could have made their profile only visible to a certain subset of their connections, including myself. If you visit their profile, you won't see anything. If I visit their profile, their home instance recognises my Hubzilla login, and I can see the profile.

What it does not do is give you the same full-blown rights as a user with a local account. I can't just, like, go to some (streams) instance and post away as, what, jupiter_rowland@rumbly.net or go to a Hubzilla hub where I don't have an account and create a webpage or a wiki or a CalDAV calendar right away without logging in. That's not how it works.

By the way, client-side OpenWebAuth support (= your login is recognised on Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte) was proposed and actually developed to the point of a pull request for Mastodon. As far as I know, it was rejected. OpenWebAuth won't come to Mastodon.

CC: @FoolishOwl @Oblomov

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Mastodon #Pixelfed #Loops #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #OpenWebAuth #SingleSignOn
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
@Come On Giant Asteroid! In general, you only have a user account, full user rights and all user features (like posting etc.) on the one instance where you've registered an account. You can follow accounts/channels from just about everywhere else. You can reply to posts from just about everywhere else. But only from where you've manually registered an account.

The Mastodon-Pixelfed combination is a special case, a misleading one. You can log into any Pixelfed instance with your Mastodon credentials, and if they're valid Mastodon credentials, you automatically get a full-blown Pixelfed account with the same credentials. This leads those who don't understand the Fediverse yet to the assumption that they can log into any instance of anything with their credentials from one Mastodon instance.

But still, you cannot just visit a Pixelfed instance while logged in on Mastodon and immediately get a full-blown Pixelfed account. The same goes for everything else that isn't Mastodon.

The powers that ActivityPub grant you are that you can follow both Mastodon accounts and non-Mastodon accounts/channels and interact with them from your Mastodon account. It's like you're on Twitter, you have a friend on Facebook or Instagram or YouTube, and you can follow their Facebook account or Instagram account or YouTube channel directly from Twitter. Also, you can search for accounts/channels and content not only from your local Mastodon instance, but just as well from other Mastodon and non-Mastodon instances as far as it's known to your local Mastodon instance.

Another very special case is OpenWebAuth magic single sign-on. You may not have knowingly come into contact with anything that has it implemented (that is, now you have, I'm on Hubzilla). OpenWebAuth does make you known on other instances. But for one, it only makes you known and grants you certain extra permissions; it does not give you all the same privileges as with a full-blown local account.

For example, let's suppose a contact of mine only allows a subset of their contacts to see their profile. Normally, if you visit their profile page, you see nothing. But if I'm one of the permitted contacts, when I go there, their home instance recognises my login and "magically" recognises me as me, and I can see their profile in all its glory. Still, I cannot go and post something to my own contacts from that instance as if I had an account there, like I could from my home instance.

Besides, the number of server applications with OpenWebAuth is limited. Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte have both server-side and client-side OpenWebAuth support. Friendica only has client-side support. That means that Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte recognise logins on Friendica, Hubzilla, (streams) and Forte, but Friendica doesn't recognise external logins.

Client-side OpenWebAuth was requested and actually developed for Mastodon, but apparently ultimately rejected. Server-side OpenWebAuth for Mastodon has not even been talked about, so it most likely will never come.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #ActivityPub #Mastodon #Pixelfed #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #Forte #OpenWebAuth
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Bryan Redeagle
I found a really cool one called Zot that had cross site authentication, which made privacy settings really interesting and useful. Unfortunately, the developer took down all of the drive and instead created a reference application called (streams), the parenthesis are correct. (streams) has no good info or documentation. You have to read the code to figure it out.


A few corrections. Source: I've been using that stuff since before Mastodon was hot. Oh, and this is going to be long.

First of all, the creator, @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️, not only created the Zot protocol, but also a reference implementation at the same time. As in 2012. The reference implementation was named Red and a fork of his very own Friendica from 2010. Since Red turned out to be a not-so-good name, it was renamed Red Matrix. And as it didn't really take off, it was redesigned and renamed into Hubzilla in 2015. Hubzilla still exists today. I'm using it right now.

Mike kept advancing the Zot protocol further and further with a whole string of forks and forks of forks and so forth. Zot6 matured with Zap around 2019 and brought OpenWebAuth magic single sign-on with itself. Both were backported to Hubzilla, which has been maintained by someone else since 2018, in 2010.

Zot's killer feature is not OpenWebAuth magic single sign-on, though. It's nomadic identity. The very thing it was designed for.

In 2021, Zot11 was reached, but it had advanced so far that it was no longer compatible with Zot6, so it was renamed to Nomad. Today's Nomad would be Zot12.

(streams) is only a semi-official name, given to it by the community, based on the name of the code repository. Officially, the application is not a project, it is intentionally nameless (no, I'm not kidding, this thing has no name), it is intentionally devoid of any traces of a brand identity, it intentionally had almost all nodeinfo code removed, and it was intentionally released into the public domain.

As (streams) is not a branded product, it does not have a website either.

The reason why it doesn't have any documentation is another one: The documentation it had was painfully outdated. It was basically handed on from fork to fork to fork and never touched. Parts of it have remained untouched since before Osada and Zap were forked from Hubzilla, and that was in 2018. Other parts still speak of Red, and that name ceased to exist in 2012. I know because Hubzilla's current documentation is every bit as old.

Hubzilla is right now having its entire documentation re-written from scratch in German and English by a community member.

For (streams), however, the only solution was to rip the whole documentation out because no documentation was deemed better than one that's so outdated it's useless.

It was considered not so bad for as long as how few people a) learned about (streams) and b) figured out how to find an open-registration instance of something that has neither third-party instance lists nor a unified instance identifier actually joined (streams). After all, they all came from Hubzilla, so they could figure out most themselves.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #Fediverse #Zot #Zot6 #Nomad #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #NomadicIdentity #SingleSignOn #OpenWebAuth
joinfediverse.wikiWhat is Hubzilla? - Join the Fediverse
Anyone interested in single sign-on / #SSO? Want a new toy to play with? I've been experimenting with it recently, and now I've got something to share: an experimental demo of how a "Sign in with the Fediverse" mechanism might work.

If you have a Mastodon or Hubzilla account, or an IndieAuth-style self-hosted identity, I'd like to invite you to try and sign in to my test site at login.mythik.co.uk.

Headline features:
  • User authentication/authorization based on the Ory tools.
  • Supports signing in using an existing Fediverse (or other) account - or one you host yourself
  • Open source - well, not yet, but it could be, if people are interested in it
  • Written by a non-expert! Woefully insecure! All manner of attacks, just waiting to be found! Invite your security expert friends to the party, and laugh together at the n00b! Fun for all the family!

Supported identity providers include:

(There's a chance Streams might work, too.)

Protocols supported:

If you can get it to work - share a screenshot and let me know what you think!

(I'll try to keep this running for a while, but I can't guarantee it - partly because I haven't finished trying to attack it yet. If I have to take it down for some reason, I'll edit this post to say so.)
zotum.netZotum
@Johannes Ernst
same account for multiple instances

This in its pure, nomadic form and with proven stability is only available on Hubzilla and (streams) anyway.

They're also the only ones whose instances can detect off-site users' logins and grant them rights that other visitors don't have, provided said off-site users are on either of the two or Friendica. All thanks to OpenWebAuth.

@Mike Macgirvin 🖥️, creator of all three and maintainer of the streams repository, is currently working on implementing nomadic identity and (streams)' set of permissions using nothing but ActivityPub so it can become available to everything else in the Fediverse as well.

share to fediverse

I'm not quite sure, but I think @Stefan Bohacek or someone who commented on one of his posts has figured out how to share at least to Hubzilla.

However, actual share buttons are all geared only towards Mastodon and hit-and-miss at best when it comes to anything else. The less something is like Mastodon, the less they work with it.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #NomadicIdentity #OpenWebAuth #Friendica #Hubzilla #Streams #(streams) #ShareButton #ShareButtons
social.coopJohannes Ernst (@J12t@social.coop)35 Posts, 833 Following, 686 Followers · Technologist, founder, organizer. Let's put people back in control of their technology. The Fediverse is a good start. Also wondering aloud where we are taking this planet. Check out my home page for more info and links. He/him. tfr

#NomadicIdentity: "#OpenWebAuth used to be called #MagicAuth, because of how seamless the experience is...you can jump from one part of the #Fediverse to another, & your permissions will be granted automatically: your browser accesses a token inside of a cookie. That token references your #DigitalIdentity in the Fediverse, verifies it, and a handshake is performed. Afterwards, anything you were given permission to access unlocks & becomes visible on the page."
wedistribute.org/2024/03/activ

oh-zot
We Distribute · Oh, Zot! Nomadic Identity is Coming to ActivityPub - We Distribute
More from We Distribute
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tl;dr: Hubzilla has had at least some of this for over a decade now. And it won't replace any of it with a new standard tailor-made for Mastodon.

@silverpill If you look past projects based on ActivityPub and at projects that have ActivityPub as an additional protocol, some of this already exists.

- Data portability. In my opinion, this is the most important problem. I'm in favor of FEP-ef61, which also solves identity portability and unlocks many new features.

Exists in the shape of nomadic identity. Invented by @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ in 2011 with his Zot protocol and first deplayed in 2012 with the Red Matrix, nowadays known as Hubzilla. Also available on (streams), Mike's current project at the end of a string of forks from Hubzilla, now based on the Nomad protocol.

Mike would like to see nomadic identity and other special features of the Zot and Nomad protocols included in the ActivityPub protocol. He has actually submitted a number of proposals for this. They were all rejected. Even though he is a protocol developer first and foremost, and he has both created and worked on more Fediverse protocols than anyone else, so he should be considered competent.

Nomadic identity with ActivityPub won't come unless either Evan Prodromou and the W3C commission cave in and allow Mike's suggestions, or someone re-invents the wheel from scratch in a way that's utterly incompatible to Hubzilla and (streams). And it won't come to Mastodon unless Eugen Rochko can imply that Mastodon has had it first.

And there will never be a nomadic identity standard that meets Mike's requirements as well as Eugen's wishes.

- End-to-end encryption. MLS has become a standard, and it would be wise to adopt it. Issue 3 at fediverse-ideas provides a good overview of what we have at the moment (not much). Some variation of FEP-ae97 is likely needed to make end-to-end encryption work.

AFAIK, all three of Mike's still existing projects, Friendica from 2010, Hubzilla from 2012/2015 and (streams) from 2021, have it. Optionally, but still. I think Friendica actually advertises military-grade encryption.

- Plugins. Something like Pleroma MRF, but cross-platform (e.g. Wasm-based). Also, pluggable timeline algorithms.

Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have had support for add-ons, including third-party add-ons, plus a number of official add-ons since their respective inceptions. If you want a cross-platform add-on standard, I hope you don't expect these three to throw their own standards over board in favour of the new standard. Otherwise, good luck developing a replacement for Pubcrawl that makes Zot-based Hubzilla compatible with ActivityPub while working on ActivityPub-based Mastodon just the same. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) rely on add-ons for all federation beyond their respective base protocols (DFRN, Zot, Nomad).

- Groups. We have several competing standards for groups: FEP-1b12, FEP-400e, Mastodon developers are working on their own standard. It would be nice to converge on a single standard, that also supports private groups.

Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have had support for discussion groups/forums since their respective inception. On Friendica, a group is a user account with special settings; on Hubzilla and (streams), it's a channel with special settings. In addition, especially Hubzilla and (streams) have access permission control on a level that most people for whom the Fediverse is only ActivityPub couldn't imagine in their wildest dreams. All three can be used by users from all over the Fediverse already now.

Good luck forcing Friendica to give up its 13-year-old standard that's used by Fediverse News, just to name one, and Hubzilla to give up its 11-year-old standard that blows everything else but what (streams) does out of the water. Good luck forcing them to adopt something inferior.

On the other hand, good luck forcing Lemmy and /kbin to switch to a wholly different standard. Don't forget that these two exist as well. And good luck having the Fediverse outside of Hubzilla and (streams) adopt both server-side and client-side OpenWebAuth.

And I'm not even talking about how different Fediverse projects handle threads differently. Mastodon has a Twitter-like thread structure: many posts, tied together with mentiones. Just about everything that's built on ActivityPub has taken this over. Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have a Facebook/blog/Tumblr-like thread structure: one post, the start post, and many comments which aren't posts. It's similar on Lemmy and /kbin which are Reddit clones, only that they don't allow thread starters to moderate their own threads.

- Quoting. FEP-e232 is a proposed standard, but most fediverse applications still use non-standard properties. Mastodon developers are trying to invent something completely different.

This is something that almost the whole Fediverse has implemented, save for Mastodon.

And again, Friendica has had quotes since its inception in 2010, almost six years before Mastodon was launched (which, by the way, federated with Friendica and Hubzilla on the spot). Hubzilla has had quotes since 2012, inherited from Friendica. Their way of quoting is dead-simple: BBcode. [quote][/quote] (streams) supports Markdown and HTML in addition to BBcode, but otherwise it's the same.

Oh, and by the way: Friendica, Hubzilla and (streams) have also supported quote-posts a.k.a. quote-tweets a.k.a. quote-toots a.k.a. quote-boosts from their very beginnings.

- Markets. So far there's only one server implementation capable of processing payments.

At least two. Hubzilla has a payment add-on, too. It isn't installed on all hubs, but it's there.

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #FediMeta #FediverseMeta #CWFediMeta #CWFediverseMeta #CWFedisplaining #Fediverse #Mastodon #MastodonIsNotTheFediverse #NotOnlyMastodon #ActivityPub #Friendica #DFRN #Hubzilla #Zot #Streams #(streams) #Nomad #Lemmy #kbin #/kbin #NomadicIdentity #OpenWebAuth #Group #Groups #Forum #Forums #Quote #Quotes #Encryption #E2EE #E2EEncryption
Codeberg.orgfep/fep/ef61/fep-ef61.md at mainfep - Fediverse Enhancement Proposals
Replied in thread
@maegul @Johannes Ernst To be fair, something like "mobile identity" already exists. In the Fediverse. Not as an experimental proof-of-concept, but in stable daily use for longer than Mastodon has even been around.

It's called "nomadic identity". It was created by @Mike Macgirvin 🖥️ in 2011 with his Zot protocol and first implemented by himself in 2012 in the Red Matrix which became Hubzilla in 2015. It's also part of the Nomad protocol, a successor of Zot, upon which Mike's latest creations commonly referred to as (streams) is based.

Nomadic identity allows you to have your channel (similar to what an account is just about everywhere else) on multiple server instances at the same time. Not backup-like static copies, but identical clones which are being kept in sync in near-real-time.

In case any of you don't know yet: Both can use ActivityPub as well, and they're federated with Mastodon. I'm actually writing this from a Hubzilla channel that has one spare clone.

Also, both Hubzilla and (streams) have bidirectional support for another creation of Mike's, a single-sign-on system named OpenWebAuth which automatically recognises your login on compatible instances.

The obvious catch is that neither of these features are available anywhere else, at least not to this extent. Hubzilla and (streams) are the only nomadic federated server applications, and they're also the only ones that with server-side OpenWebAuth support which means that they can recognise OpenWebAuth logins from elsewhere.

And it's safe to say that what doesn't exist on Mastodon may be seen as non-existent in the Fediverse altogether.

CC: @Ben Pate 🤘 @Laurens Hof @Vicki Boykis

#Long #LongPost #CWLong #CWLongPost #Fediverse #NomadicIdentity #OpenWebAuth #Hubzilla #Streams
social.coopJohannes Ernst (@J12t@social.coop)35 Posts, 833 Following, 686 Followers · Technologist, founder, organizer. Let's put people back in control of their technology. The Fediverse is a good start. Also wondering aloud where we are taking this planet. Check out my home page for more info and links. He/him. tfr
@KubikPixel™ Kommt ganz drauf an, was man will.

Die beste direkte Alternative dürfte #Firefish ex #CalcKey sein, das #Mastodon in Features weit voraus ist. #Volltextsuche hat Mastodon gerade erst eingeführt, so daß die mangels brauchbarer Indizes noch gar nicht richtig nutzbar ist. Firefish hatte sie schon immer, weil auch #Misskey sie schon immer hatte.

#Textformatierungen und #Zitate konnten Firefish und Misskey meines Wissens auch schon immer. Mastodon kann beides nur anzeigen, während Firefish sogar Textformatierungen erzeugen kann, die Mastodon nicht anzeigen kann.

Oder Zeichenlimits beim Schreiben von Posts. Mastodon kann nur 500 Zeichen. Für mehr muß der Admin so tief in die Software einsteigen, daß man fast schon von einem Fork reden könnte. Firefish kann standardmäßig 3000 Zeichen, was der Admin meines Wissens auf der Oberfläche einstellen, also noch erhöhen kann. Zugegeben, beide hacken #AltText rigoros bei 1500 Zeichen ab.

Last but not least unterstützt Firefish meines Wissens die Mastodon-API, sollte also gute Unterstützung durch Mastodon-Apps haben bis darauf, daß man mit Apps, die nur für Mastodon entwickelt werden, auch fast nur das machen kann, was Mastodon kann.

#Friendica ist natürlich noch mächtiger. Es hat Zeichenlimits in den Zigtausenden, es unterstützt wohl noch mehr Formatierungen, es hat einen Filehoster eingebaut, es hat einen öffentlichen Kalender eingebaut, man kann Konten als moderierte Gruppen/Foren einrichten usw. Und es hat mit all dem schon Erfahrungein seit 2010.

Der Hauptnachteil dürfte aber sein, daß es weiter von Mastodon entfernt ist als Firefish. Es gibt mehr, was anders ist und anders läuft. Was man auf Mastodon gelernt oder von Twitter mitgenommen hat, kann man auf Friendica eigentlich gleich wieder vergessen.

Posts schreibt man nicht wie Tweets, sondern wie Blogposts. Bilder werden nicht als Dateien angehängt, sondern woanders hochgeladen (meistens im eingebauten Dateispeicher) und irgendwo im Text eingebettet. Alt-Text ist kein separates Feld, sondern muß per Hand in den BBcode eingeflochten werden. Ein Content-Warning-Feld gibt's nicht, aber eins für den Titel und eins für die Zusammenfassung, wobei sich letzteres dann als dasselbe wie Content Warnings auf Mastodon entpuppt. Direktnachrichten gehen nicht mit @ und Rechteeinstellen, sondern mit !. Antworten sind nicht auch Posts, sondern Kommentare, und das ist ganz was anderes als ein Post. Und so weiter.

Klar, Friendica kann mehr und einiges auch besser, aber Mastodon-Umsteiger müssen im Prinzip alles ganz neu lernen.

#Streams von 2021 ist in Teilen noch mächtiger als Friendica (wobei ein Teil von Friendicas Features wieder fehlt), #Hubzilla von 2015 ist durchweg noch sehr viel mächtiger. Aber hier ist die Umgewöhnung noch heftiger, alleine schon, weil die eigene Identität nicht durchs Konto definiert ist, sondern in einem Kanal "containerisiert". Und man kann auf demselben Konto mehrere Kanäle mit separaten Identitäten haben. Und dann kommt noch #NomadischeIdentität oben drauf, auch wenn die eigentlich der feuchte Traum vieler Mastodon-Nutzer ist. Sie erfordert nur eben Um-die-Ecke-Denken.

Hubzilla ist natürlich so ziemlich der ultimative Alleskönner. Es ist mehr als nur Friendica mit ein bißchen Extrazeugs, wobei vieles genauso funktioniert wie auf Friendica und somit ganz anders als auf Mastodon.

Hubzilla ist ein "Social CMS", das einem neben Social Networking und Gar-nicht-so-Microblogging auch voll formatiertes Macroblogging bietet, das sich in der Funktion kaum vom Gar-nicht-so-Microblogging unterscheidet, außerdem einfache Websites, Wikis, Cloudspeicher mit WebDAV, CalDAV und CardDAV und so weiter und so fort. Oben drauf gibt's ein sehr detailliertes Rechtemanagement, das auch eng verzahnt ist mit #SingleSignOn durch #OpenWebAuth.

Aber auf der einen Seite steht dieser gigantische Funktionsberg, und auf der anderen Seite steht die Benutzeroberfläche. An sich könnte die extrem flexibel sein, sie unterstützt Komplett-Themes, die für jeden Kanal individuell wählbar wären. In der Praxis gibt es aber nur noch ein Theme, das gepflegt wird. Das ist noch von 2012, wurde aus einem Friendica-Standardthema für die #RedMatrix umgebaut, hat sich seitdem kaum bis gar nicht verändert und hat mit Usability kaum etwas zu tun. Alternativen sind in der Mache, aber noch nicht offiziell verfügbar.

Dazu kommt die Dokumentation. Die wurde geschrieben von Entwicklern, die nicht wußten, wie man Nichtentwicklern etwas erklärt, also z. B. ganz normalen Endnutzern, und liest sich streckenweise eher wie ein technisches Lastenhaft. Noch dazu ist sie zu erheblichen Teilen so hoffnungslos veraltet, daß sie überhaupt nicht nutzbar ist.

Ach ja: Textformatierung gibt's. Textformatierung mit Klickibunti und Echtzeit-WYSIWYG gibt's nicht. Wer keinen BBcode kann, hat verloren, weil einem auch die Buttons nur BBcode in den Editor packen. Auch wenn zum Glück zumindest die BBcode-Implementation von Hubzilla ziemlich gut dokumentiert und halbwegs aktuell ist.

(streams) hat nicht mehr den Funktionsumfang von Hubzilla. Das Ziel ist hier eigentlich nicht, von vornherein einen Alleskönner zu haben, sondern eine Codebasis, um daraus was feines Eigenes zu bauen. Die Oberfläche sieht ganz ähnlich aus, ist aber einen Tick zugänglicher, vielleicht auch deshalb, weil es vieles einfach nicht mehr gibt. Erleichternd dürfte für einige dazukommen, daß auf (streams) alles wahlweise mit BBcode, Markdown oder HTML formatiert werden kann, so daß man keinen BBcode lernen muß, wenn man schon Markdown kann.

(streams) hat auch eine bessere Anbindung von #ActivityPub und Verbesserungen in der nomadischen Identität. Dafür kann es sich mit nichts anderem mehr verbinden, außer daß es immer noch RSS-Feeds erzeugt und E-Mail-Benachrichtigungen verschicken kann.

Näher an Mastodon ist es damit aber nicht. Im Gegenteil: Verwirrend ist schon mal, daß es sich nicht um ein in sich geschlossenes Projekt mit Namen und Marke handelt. Es ist gar kein Projekt, sondern nur ein Code-Repository. Es hat auch keinen Namen und kein Logo. Es ist wirklich mit voller Absicht namenlos. Der Name "Streams" und das Wellenlogo gehören beide zum Repository, nicht zur Software. Daher auch die Klammern um den "Namen".

Das heißt auch, daß die einzelnen Instanzen keine einheitliche Projektidentität haben. Mastodon-Instanzen identifizieren sich alle als Mastodon. Hubzilla-Instanzen identifizieren sich alle als Hubzilla. (streams)-Instanzen identifizieren sich als irgendwas, weil man da selbst etwas eintragen kann und muß. Waitman Gobbles öffentliche Instanz namens Rumbly identifiziert sich beispielsweise nicht als "Streams", sondern als "-get".

Folge: Es ist nicht möglich, (streams)-Instanzen automatisiert zu crawlen, zu identifizieren und aufzulisten. Das wird noch zusätzlich dazu erschwert, daß mit ebenso voller Absicht die Statistikausgabe aus (streams) komplett entfernt wurde. Die einschlägigen Projekt- und Instanz-Listenseiten fürs #Fediverse listen allesamt keine (streams)-Instanzen, und das werden sie auch nicht, weil das zum einen nicht gewollt und zum anderen wegen der uneinheitlichen Identifikation der Instanzen gar nicht möglich ist.

Folge: (streams)-Instanzen zu finden, ist Detektivarbeit. Das dürfte auch erklären, warum es bei (streams) einen noch höheren Anteil an persönlichen Instanzen gibt, zumal es kaum öffentliche Instanzen mit offener Registrierung gibt.

Ein gemeinsamer Nachteil von Hubzilla und (streams) ist: Smartphone-Apps kann man vergessen. Für Hubzilla gibt's eine, die seit 2018 nicht mehr gepflegt wird, also mehr als die Hälfte der Zeit, die es Hubzilla gibt. Die funktioniert inzwischen gar nicht mehr. Und auch die hat den Fokus nur aufs Mikroblogging gelegt.

(streams) wird wohl nie eine Smartphone-App haben, eben weil es kein in sich geschlossenes Projekt mit fixer Projektidentität ist.

Beide unterstützen nicht die Mastodon-API, soweit ich weiß. Also ist man so oder so auf den Webbrowser angeweisen. Andererseits sind beide Projekte so mächtig, daß es kaum möglich sein dürfte, ihren jeweils kompletten Funktionsumfang in eine dann immer noch leicht bedienbare Smartphone-App zu pressen.
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@Jens Ljungkvist :mastodon: @Jeff Sikes @Kainoa @Chris Trottier Something similar to "one account on all projects" is already in the works.

By and by, #Fediverse projects may adopt #OpenWebAuth, a #SingleSignOn implementation developed by @mike for #Hubzilla and currently implemented on Hubzilla, its direct predecessor #Friendica and its latest not-quite direct descendant, #Streams. An implementation is also in development on #Mastodon. It should not be confused with #OAuth and #OAuth2, these are something entirely different.

What OpenWebAuth is that it recognises logins elsewhere. When I'm logged into this Hubzilla account, and I visit another Hubzilla hub or maybe a Friendica node or a (streams) instance, it will automatically recognise me. And it will grant me some extra "guest permissions" like being able to post directly on the wall of another Hubzilla or (streams) channel.

What it does not do, however, is give me all the power on any Friendica node, Hubzilla hub or (streams) instance that a logged-in user with a user account has.

I can't go to another Hubzilla hub and create a clone of my channel or create a brand-new channel or post an article or start a wiki or upload files just with my OpenWebAuth login credentials. And when Mastodon introduces OpenWebAuth, I still won't be able to go to any one random Mastodon instance and start tooting. All this would still require a local user account on that one specific instance.

One account for the whole Fediverse is utopic. It's technologically impossible or just very very very unfeasible.

The Fediverse has 24,000+ instances of dozens of projects. If you want full local user power everywhere in the Fediverse, you'll need one registered account on each one of these 24,000+ instances.

Whenever someone joins mastodon.social, then RATATATATATATATATATATA, 24,000+ more accounts with the same login credentials will have to be created automatically.

Also, the Fediverse has 12,000,000+ users. If you want full local user power everywhere in the Fediverse, then everyone else must have it, too. So every single instance of each Fediverse project will have to have one account per Fediverse user. The only exceptions would be those very few projects which are designed for only one user account.

However, personal instances of projects that are designed for multiple user accounts will all be affected. The hapless Mastodon user who comes over to your personal Hubzilla hub to act like a registered user will neither know nor care if that hub is running on a root server in a data centre with two 36-core Xeon CPUs and enough RAM to make a 3-D CAD workstation cry or on a Raspberry Pi at your home.

Now, let's assume someone has set up a new Web server with some Fediverse project installed on it. It doesn't matter if that's Mastodon or #CalcKey or #Lemmy or #Mitra or (streams) or whatever as long as it has #ActivityPub. They start that thing up for the first time: sudo systemctl start nginx or so.

And RATATATATATATATATATATA TATATATATATATATATATATA TATATATATATATATATATATA TATATATATATATATATATATA TATATATATATATATATATATA TATATATATATATATATATATA, that poor thing will sit for WEEKS registering over twelve million user accounts.

Why? Because anyone in the Fediverse might come over anytime soon and want to use just this one specific instance as if they had registered their personal user account there. In order to be able to do that, they need a user account.

By the way, not even the notorious featherweight #Pleroma could handle 12,000,000+ user accounts on one instance. Mastodon can do that even less, not to mention the heavyweight Friendica or the super-heavyweight Hubzilla.

Speaking of Hubzilla, maybe a new Hubzilla hub might get away more easily when starting up for the first time. On Hubzilla, ActivityPub is optional per hub and then per channel. The hub admin can switch it on and off, and if it's on, the users can switch it on and off again for each one of their channels.

So if ActivityPub is off on the admin side by default, new Hubzilla hubs will only register one user account for each Hubzilla and (streams) user out there, maybe also for the users on the few remaining instances of the #Zotlabs projects that went EOL on New Year's Eve 2022, #Redmatrix, #Osada, #Zap, #Misty a.k.a. #Mistpark2020 and #Roadhouse. They all speak one native language, #Zot.

But once the admin activates the Pubcrawl app for their hub, that hub will immediately start registering user accounts for every user on every instance of every project that connects to Hubzilla via ActivityPub, each account with one channel with Pubcrawl on. And it will spend weeks or months doing so and not have any server resources left to do anything else in the meantime.

Speaking of Hubzilla, there's also #NomadicIdentity, the killer feature of the Zot protocol. Hubzilla has it, (streams) has it, and the (un)dead Zotlabs projects have it.

Ideally, each Fediverse user would not get one account on each Hubzilla hub and each (streams) instance with one separate, unique channel on it. They would first get the accounts. On one account on one Hubzilla hub, one channel would be created. This channel would then be cloned across all Hubzilla hubs and to (streams).

Advantage: Each Fediverse user would only have one channel for Hubzilla and (streams) together. They would have the exact same content on all Hubzilla hubs and, minus what Hubzilla can do that (streams) can't, all (streams) instances.

Obvious disadvantage: Whenever someone decides to do something on that channel, it would have to be synced to all its clones in near-real-time, causing a lot of network traffic.

And if you set up a new Hubzilla hub or (streams) instance, the creation of 12,000,000+ accounts would actually become a lesser problem. The bigger problem would be the 12,000,000+ channels that will be cloned onto your machine with everything on them. You'd better attach a few petabytes worth of HDD capacities to your personal little Raspberry Pi.

By the way, if everyone had full local user rights on each Fediverse instance, the Fediverse would have over 300 billion local accounts.
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@CynthesisToday Yep, these incompatibilities all lie within the #Mastodon server application, how it handles #ActivityPub and how much of it. There are plenty of Mastodon forks which have things like quotes or text formatting implemented. At least text formatting is trivial to add, mostly by throwing out all the code that strips the rich text formatting off the incoming notes, and quotes aren't rocket science either.

The S2C transmission isn't affected by this. However, most mobile apps that were coded against Mastodon either only or first and foremost have neither text formatting nor quotes implemented. Since most Mastodon users are on mobile devices, these features won't appear in practice until the popular mobile apps have them built-in.

More general #Fediverse apps or apps designed for other server-side projects have them implemented already now.

Oh, and if Mastodon really gets #OpenWebAuth, then #Lemmy and #kbin can't sit and watch and pick their noses and do nothing.
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
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@Sim :blobfoxcomputer: :ferris: At least I've seen Mastodon users demanding that everyone who is not on Mastodon make their posts so that nothing about them disturbs Mastodon users.

This means no actual quotes because Mastodon doesn't know quotes. This means no bullet-point lists because Mastodon doesn't know bullet-point lists.

This means not more than four images because Mastodon has to convert images from certain projects to file attachments and attach them behind the end of the post, and Mastodon can't attach more than four files to one post.

In fact, this means only one picture because Mastodon seems to order file attachments and pictures the wrong way.

And this means no sensitive pictures at all because Mastodon can't hide them behind a CW when they come in from outside of Mastodon.

Oh, and it means posts no longer than 500 characters.

As for your other paragraph, there are two possible solutions for this. One is halfway realistic.

The realistic one means to introduce #SingleSignOn in the shape of #OpenWebAuth (also invented by @mike) to Mastodon, Lemmy and /kbin. Then Lemmy and /kbin would recognise your Mastodon login. Also, this would require modifications to the Web UI for "guest users" as which you would count. Then you could do the same you can do now remotely from Mastodon, but on the Web UI of whatever Lemmy or /kbin instance you're currently on.

But you would not have all features that users with a user account on that instance have, i.e. you can neither create nor moderate Lemmy communities or /kbin magazines.

If you wanted these, too, this would require the second, impossible solution, namely the automatic creation of one user account for each Fediverse user on each Lemmy instance and each /kbin instance. This could be combined with OpenWebAuth, too, and automatically log you into your account on that respective instance. But whenever someone starts up a new instance, it would have to a) know all 12,000,000++ Fediverse accounts and b) immediately create one local account for each one of them.
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
Replied in thread
@David Fleetwood - RG Admin I wasn't even talking about #OAuth. #OpenWebAuth is something entirely different, created by Friendica inventor Mike Macgirvin as an advancement for his next creation, Hubzilla, along with a new version of Hubzilla's Zot protocol.

That said, Hubzilla also supports both OAuth and OAuth2. But I don't have either token manager app activated on my channel because I don't see a use-case for them right now, so I can't say how or how well they work.
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
@Mr.MarkⓂ️ It's already possible to have the same account on multiple instances of the same project, but not on anything based on ActivityPub. It's called #NomadicIdentity, and only #Hubzilla, #Streams and the EOL projects in-between have it.

Between different projects it only works if they aren't too different. I know someone who has gone nomadic between #Zap and (streams), but EOL Zap can easily be upgraded to (streams), so they're very close. I myself wouldn't dare mirror my Hubzilla channel to (streams).

Something else that could be possible is authentication across projects. #OpenWebAuth already made this possible on everything from Hubzilla to (streams), but it's independent from the #Zot protocol and could also be used elsewhere. Basically, you log into your channel, and even instances where you don't have an account recognise you by your login credentials.

But your proposal, one account for as many instances as you want of as many projects as you want, regardless of underlying technology, I can't see this happen.

Either this would require OpenWebAuth to be expanded to such degrees that if I logged into my Hubzilla channel and visit a PeerTube instance, I could upload videos there. This could easily be misused.

Or it would require nomadic identity across all kinds of projects and protocols (Zot, DFRN, ActivityPub). I would have to be able to mirror my channel which I now have on two Hubzilla hubs additionally onto four Friendica nodes, five Mastodon servers, three CalcKey instances, two Funkwhale pods, four PeerTube instances, one WordPress blog, one BookWyrm instance and so forth. The very same channel with the very same content, mind you. It should be obvious that this is impossible.
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla
@Johannes Ernst @MSavoritias Try this instead: #^https://hubzilla.org/

#NomadicIdentity is currently only supported by #Hubzilla and #Streams along with several EOL projects which led from Hubzilla to (streams).

One part of it is the ease of moving an entire channel with everything on it from one instance to another.

Another even more intriguing part is that you can have the same channel simultaneously on multiple instances, automatically kept in-sync in real-time. This makes your channel highly resilient against instance shutdowns. One clone is gone, doesn't matter, you've got some more. Your main clone is gone, doesn't matter, you declare another one your main.

Nomadic identity is also why #OpenWebAuth was created: If you're logged into one Hubzilla hub, all others will recognise your login credentials if you access them in your Web browser. If you visit another instance on which you have a clone with the same credentials, you're automatically being fully logged in.
social.coopJohannes Ernst (@J12t@social.coop)35 Posts, 833 Following, 686 Followers · Technologist, founder, organizer. Let's put people back in control of their technology. The Fediverse is a good start. Also wondering aloud where we are taking this planet. Check out my home page for more info and links. He/him. tfr
Replied in thread
@Bob Wyman For starters, everything I've listed is not only part of the #Fediverse, but bi-directionally federated with #Mastodon. So there's little to do with regards to establishing interoperability in the first place.

Beyond that: You can't blindly write a mobile app for these projects without knowing these projects in the first place. They aren't all Twitter-like microblogging services.

You need to know that these projects exist. You need to know how they work. You need to know their features. You need to know their specific APIs if they have any.

Also, #Friendica and #Hubzilla aren't even native #ActivityPub platforms. They have ActivityPub bolted-on as applications. On Hubzilla, you as a user even have to activate ActivityPub on your channel(s).

Friendica uses its own protocol internally, #DFRN, which, along with Friendica, was created eight years before ActivityPub was established as a standard.

Hubzilla was created around a protocol named #Zot which was invented in 2011 and introduced a concept named #NomadicIdentity. I can't see ActivityPub being expanded to everything that Hubzilla's current #Zot6 can do, much less everything that its direct successor, #Nomad, used by #Streams, can do.

Also, if you wanted to standardise Hubzilla's full feature set in ActivityPub so that app developers can create a mobile app for Hubzilla without ever having seen Hubzilla, you'd have to blow that standard up to gigantic proportions.

Since you obviously have never heard of it, let me list up some of its features:
  • cross-instance authorisation via #OpenWebAuth (which really only makes sense in a Web browser)
  • multiple separate channels per user account with separate identities, each with multiple profiles à la Friendica which can assigned to individual users or privacy groups
  • nomadic identity; not only easy moving of channels to other instances, but real-time mirroring of individual channels between multiple instances
  • fine-grained privacy/access rights control through both channel roles and pre-definable sets of contact roles
  • posts can have an almost unlimited number of characters; formatting is possible through the full standard set of BBcode plus Hubzilla-specific extensions, some of which tie into Zot/OpenWebAuth
  • additional long-form writing support through articles which support the same BBcode set
  • support for simple webpages which support the same BBcode set plus Markdown plus HTML
  • built-in wiki engine which supports BBcode and Markdown plus individual edit access control for other users/channels
  • built-in file server with WebDAV support and individual access rights control per directory
  • image gallery which can tie into the file server
  • public calendar inherited from Friendica
  • secondary calendar engine with variable access control for other users/channels and CalDAV support
  • address book with CardDAV support
  • ca. 55 built-in per-channel applications, most of which are optional
  • etc.

Let me put it this way: Hubzilla is something which, at its current state, can barely be harnessed in a desktop browser with a hardware mouse, a hardware keyboard and a 20+" display. I can't see Hubzilla's full set of features be made accessible in a mobile app, much less more easily than on the desktop.

If you really want to have all features from all Fediverse platforms standardised in ActivityPub, then ActivityPub would end up with three different calendar implementations alone, two of which Hubzilla uses (and they aren't connected to one another in any way), the third being that used by #Mobilizon.

Besides, I can't even see long-form blogging working on mobile phones. Apps for writing articles on #Plume, #WriteFreely or Hubzilla's article application don't make much sense without a hardware keyboard. Not to mention that Plume, WriteFreely and Hubzilla have different implementations of long-form blog post writing.
hub.netzgemeinde.euNetzgemeinde/Hubzilla